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This little MP3 player (Zen Micro) that competes directly with the iPod mini was actually good enough to surprise me. Even though I’ve hardly had any experience with iPods (I had a normal one in my hands for a couple of minutes to toy with) in my opinion the Zen is better than the iPod mini, and I’ll explain why in topics.
*updated due to lack of some info (thanks ejrolon)*
Size (WxHxD):
Zen: 3.3" x 2" x 0.7" – Area: 4.62 (Cubic Inches)
Mini: 3.6" x 2.0" x 0.5" – Area: Area: 3.6 (Cubic Inches)
The winner here is iPod Mini, but it’s debatable, since the iPod Mini is a tad longer than the Zen and in some cases might be more uncomfortable to use.
Capacity:
Zen: 4GB
Mini: 4GB
A tie.
Colors:
Zen: 10 colors
Mini: 4 colors
Clearly the Zen has more options, the only part that changes is the front, but still you can pick a color that is more likely to satisfy your taste.
Battery Life:
Zen: Up to 12 hours
Mini: Up to 18 hours
The Mini has the upper hand here by a cool 6 hours, but, the Zen’s battery is replaceable, and that is a big plus.
Connectivity:
Zen and Mini: USB 2.0 (1.1 compatible)
Mini: Supports Firewire
Mini wins this one.
Software:
Zen: Zen Micro Media Explorer / (or) Windows Media Player
Mini: iTunes
Some people really like the iTunes for it’s simplicity, I’ve hardly ever used it, I prefer Winamp for my music listening. The Zen Micro Explorer is embedded with Windows Explorer and you can basically drag and drop your music, select a few and change the album/genre/artist, basically it’s simple and effective. You can also use the Sync tab on Media Player to transfer music.
Bottom line for software: If you already use or prefer iTunes for your music management, obviously the Mini wins. My vote goes for the Zen though, for giving a nice and simple alternative to a music management software in case you don’t use one.
Extras:
Zen has a radio (you can record from) and an audio recorder, Mini has popularity and endless accessories.
Usability:
Zen: Awkward at first, the scroll panel is ok but takes some getting used to.
Mini: Everyone loves that scroll-wheel, clearly it’s the winner here.
Price:
Zen: $179
Mini: $199
Zen wins here, and if you put in a little extra, for $229 you get the 5GB Zen with a power adaptor, pouch and belt clip, and (this is unconfirmed) an extra battery?*. The Mini already comes with a belt-clip.
*My friend purchased a Special Offer 5GB Zen Micro in a Portuguese supplier and it came with an extra Rechargeable Battery and the other extra accessories mentioned above, therefore, I cannot confirm that the US also comes with one, or if all Zen Micro come with one.
Bottom Line:
If you just want a music player that you can expand more and use things such as Air Tunes, or any of the many accessories, (or if you have a Mac) then the Mini is the player for you.
If you want a music player that has a few more quirks, can use to move some files from work to home (or any other computer) and has a better value for your money, then the Zen is for you. WHY? (Many fans will ask) Because the battery is replaceable.
Note: If you wish to comment about something bad or mistaken that I said about the iPod/Zen, I’ll be thankfull if you do, but keep it reasonable. As I mentioned before, my experience with the iPod isn’t very big. So if I made any mistakes or didn’t mention good/bad points for either device, I’ll add them to the comparison, just mail me at griffith.pt{AT}gmail.com . Keep things civilized please!
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74 Responses for "Zen Micro (4GB) VS iPod Mini (4GB)"
May 11th, 2005 at 12:53 pm
1I like my iPod, however I rarely transfer files from my PC to it. Like you, I prefer Winamp for listening to my music; it’s what I’m used to. I don’t like how I can’t copy music directly from my CDs (mp3). Next time I connect the file won’t be there any it’ll update the iPod accordingly. I’d much prefer to be able to simply copy ‘n paste in windows like moving files. I got an iPod coz of it’s usability and “coolness” I suppose.
May 11th, 2005 at 1:20 pm
2Actually you can use the Mini as a removable harddisk without reformating or doing a partition, just enable disk mode, no extra software. Also you can use Firewire to connect your mini which gives you faster access times. If you use a Mac then you can also sync your calendars, todo’s and contacts. Radio and recording can be done but you have to buy extra stuff, so ok there.
May 11th, 2005 at 1:59 pm
3Updated, thanks for the info.
May 11th, 2005 at 2:08 pm
4inches x inches x inches is inches cubed, and measures volume.
May 11th, 2005 at 2:25 pm
5That’s exactly what I think, I’ve got a new Zen Micro a while ago, and I really think it’s much better than an iPod; it only lacks the “cool” factor.
You can check it out here, in case you’re interested:
http://www.ramikayyali.com/archives/2005/05/02/zen
May 11th, 2005 at 2:55 pm
6I have a creative zen touch which i like very well and the 24h playback option is cool :) Creative Zen Touch wins against IPod :)
Cheers, murphy
May 11th, 2005 at 5:52 pm
7In terms of pure hardware per buck, pretty much any other player out there kicks ipods;
In terms of pure hardware per buck, pretty much any other computer out there kicks Apple;
If you don’t own one, all you can really compare is hardware specs.
May 11th, 2005 at 7:46 pm
8You know, Nokia did recently show a phone with a 4 gig harddrive.
The MP3-player killers are coming soon. Be patient.
May 12th, 2005 at 7:19 am
9You also have to consider compression quality and number of songs in 4 gb. If wma’s are lower quality than AAC, than you need to take that into account. If WMAs take of less space in the player, those 4 gb go further, which would mean it is not a tie. I really don’t care how big my hard drive is, I care how much music I can fit in it, and what sound quality the tracks I’m putting in are.
May 12th, 2005 at 7:42 am
10It’s a tie because the iPod is mp3 compatible, and since that is the universal format it’s the only one I can use for comparison. As far as sound quality goes, unless you plug your iPod to external speakers you can barely tell the difference between a 128kbps MP3 with a 320kpbs one on some small earphones or the factory ones.
And as far as sound quality goes, Creative is very well known for their Soundcards, even though I’m not a sound expert, it should be expected that the Zen has better sound quality than an iPod.
May 12th, 2005 at 11:30 am
11Maybe on your headphones, griffith… anything moderately high end, you should have no problem telling the difference. the 128s have definite artifacts. I usually rip everything at 192, that’s enough to remove 90% of what I can make out with my Shure E2s… If i had a higher end model, I’d probably go even higher.
May 14th, 2005 at 8:24 pm
12JC, same, but I have to take it further. Really, any compressed music loses its ’soul.’ You can’t necessarily point it out or define it, but it just feels different. When I am really in a listening mood, the only thing I can stand is a real, lossless CD. I used to rip mp3s to 320kB/s, and that still wasn’t enough. This is why I don’t own a portable music player. It’s not that I’m trying to be a snob or anything, it’s just that the lesser quality just bothers my ears.
June 14th, 2005 at 4:47 am
13I have been wondering which to buy out of a zen micro or an iPod mini, the zen neeon is also really cool with the stick-on covers but its not availiable in as many places.
at the moment i think i might get a zen micro but i might get an iPod mini because they are more easy to buy as they are sold everywhere, and for no extra cost you can get engraving on the iPod mini if you purchase off the website.
June 14th, 2005 at 4:49 am
14yahoolagins.com is the best site to help you decide!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
my poo is tasy!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
is yours!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
June 14th, 2005 at 4:50 am
15poo poo poo poo poo poo poo poo poo poo poo poo poo poo poo poo poo poo poo poo poo poo poo poo poo poo poo poo poo poo poo poo poo poo poo poo poo poo poo poo poo poo poo poo poo poo poo poo poo poo poo poo poo poo poo poo poo poo poo poo poo poo poo poo poo poo poo poo poo poo poo poo poo poo poo poo poo poo poo poo poo poo poo poo poo poo poo poo poo poo poo poo poo poo poo poo poo poo poo poo poo poo poo poo poo poo poo poo poo poo poo poo poo poo poo poo poo poo poo poo poo poo poo poo poo poo poo poo poo poo poo poo poo poo poo poo poo poo poo poo poo poo poo poo poo poo poo poo poo poo poo poo poo poo poo poo poo poo poo poo poo poo poo poo poo poo poo poo poo poo poo poo poo poo poo poo poo poo poo poo poo poo poo poo poo poo poo poo poo poo poo poo poo poo poo poo poo poo poo poo poo poo poo poo poo poo poo poo poo
June 14th, 2005 at 4:53 am
16OMG! whoever wrote whats above me is sooo not cool! anyway! i think your review is NOT poo and that you are extremely intelligent!
i prefer the iPod mini
June 14th, 2005 at 1:11 pm
17Zen Micro for me why? First Ipod indeed has a sleak design which better fits for girls. My girl bought an Ipod and Zen I choose Zen for its muscular cube built and Ipod for her. Who wants to listen to 1000 songs if your battery going dead. Ipod wins here but mine has a replaceable battery which totals to 24 hrs(my choice indeed). Blue Led light stands out really crowd has seen it “Dang! whats that”. Lastly I want a massive download database un like Ipod only goes for Itunes. The voice recorder and stuff, I dont use it but it may come handy most of the time. Unlike Ipod you have to buy seperate snap-ons for it. Sound quality CREATIVE are poineers for these. Practically Zen Micro wins. Dont forget I got a good deal with my Zen cause it has a remote and extra battery for 200 no tax and all regular accesories in the box. People buy Ipod is just for advertising and they are very good at it. Ipod wins on selling totals.
I decided ZEN after reading tons of reviews on the net.
June 20th, 2005 at 1:45 pm
18The other factors you are forgetting are that the Mini does not come with anything. So you need to buy the power cord for $30, and then the case for another $20 to $50. If you get it engraved, and you eventually have to send it in and pay the other $107 to get it replaced, you don’t get your player back. It is a refurbished unit. For those of you with Mac’s that still want a choice, you can download the iTunes Plug-In for Mac here:
http://homepage.mac.com/creativemail/
or Just search “Zen”+”iTunes” at version tracker.
June 20th, 2005 at 5:42 pm
19“In terms of pure hardware per buck, pretty much any other player out there kicks ipods;
In terms of pure hardware per buck, pretty much any other computer out there kicks Apple;
If you don’t own one, all you can really compare is hardware specs.”
all hail cliche
of course he stated the obvious but few people realize this!
i have a creative zen and it cost much less than an iPod 20GB it was awesome
June 22nd, 2005 at 4:18 pm
20Overall the Zen Micro has impressed me and it really grew on me as I used it. Quite simply, this is the best MP3 player Creative has ever made. If youâre considering getting an iPod mini, then take a close look at the Zen Micro first â itâs cheaper, offers more storage capacity, has more features and even comes in even more colours. Early stock is limited to the black, blue, light blue, silver, orange and pink, but Creative should have all the colour options available shortly.
I said it was cheaper than an iPod mini, but how cheap, well itâs not sub £150 yet, but you can find it for £163.99 online, which I think is a pretty good price for a 5GB player. The Zen Micro isnât perfect, but itâs pretty damn close.
Forget the iPod Mini, the Zen Micro is the new âmust haveâ MP3 player. It beats the Apple in terms of features and functionality and even saves you a bit of cash.
June 28th, 2005 at 3:54 am
21the ipod mini doesnt have a 18 hour battery life it only has an 8 hour battery life. I prefer the zen micro because it can work with windows media player which can tag songs you download not like itunes.
July 18th, 2005 at 8:02 am
22thin lizzy rock
July 27th, 2005 at 1:52 pm
23On the extra battery deal if you purchase a Creative Zen Micro from either the Creative website or the Creative Ebay Store you recieve a free extra battery (that’s two batteries). This offer excludes the Black and Hot Pink Models (I don’t know why that’s just what it says).
July 28th, 2005 at 4:14 am
24First of all, I choose the iPod mini, its smaller than the creative player, and avaible in 4GB and 6GB models, the creative player is also aviable in 4GB and 5GB and 6GB models, the ipods colours are more attractive, and the new ipod mini has 18 hours of battery life. the creative player has only 12 hours. The creative 5GB player can fit 2500 songs at 16 kbps..and 1250 at 128 kbps so now you see if you want 2500 songs on it your sound quility would be extremly bad. With the ipod mini 6GB you can fit 1500 songs at 128 kbps and 3000 at 16 kpbs if you realy want to get bad quility sounded music. The ipod may not have Radio or voice recording…but now is equiped with Podcasts, it is radio, so now you do have radio on your ipod mini.
The touch pad on the creative is poorly designed and ugly, The clickwheel on the ipod is simply easy to use and is defently more better.
The Font on the creative is extremly bad and is small, the ipod mini has a better pixtle screen and better font and an easier menu to use, if you want a better, stronger MP3 player buy the ipod, 4GB $179-$199 and 6GB $239-$249
July 29th, 2005 at 3:26 pm
25I used and iPod mini for about a day and I decided I didn’t like it. I hated iTunes. I prefer the drag-and-drop method of file transfers. So I’m going to return it for a Zen. Also having a replaceable battery is a plus. I hear that you gotta shell out a ton of money just to replace the iPod battery if it goes bad.
July 29th, 2005 at 9:24 pm
26lets all face it, ipods are extremely over priced, frezze up all the time, are horribly put together, and are just plain crap.
July 31st, 2005 at 12:14 pm
27the touchpad is terrible, radio reception is poor, my headphones jack screwed up in the first week (now im using a new sennheiser pair) and the battery life is about 6 hours on a full charge.
but i like it.
August 4th, 2005 at 2:56 pm
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a
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benioegjeqrkjeqrpoikrglf(motherfuckers)kguafhkerjqwerq;igkhkjhgfeqkfgehfkwjer
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August 4th, 2005 at 2:59 pm
29hi i am koolgamer13 this is my runescape account i preffreer i prefeer how to speel prerffer? i am soory i am no godd at speelliing, byi byi pepel
August 17th, 2005 at 6:42 am
30lol what a buncha qirks ^^
September 2nd, 2005 at 4:08 pm
31I have a Creative Zen Micro and recently bought an Ibook
Does anyone knows how can I sync files and music with MAC
September 7th, 2005 at 2:09 pm
32The ipod mini only has 8 hours of battery NOT 18.
September 11th, 2005 at 6:54 pm
33ipod = pooPod
Zen = CREATIVE.
And apple stole the name of the new ipod “nano” from who else but the best! Be a bit more CREATIVE apple.
September 24th, 2005 at 7:56 pm
34micro is full of bugs and building defaults
creative support sucks
September 28th, 2005 at 12:03 am
35i’ve had my zen micro for about two months now, and i love it so much. 99% of my friends have ipods but i decided i’d go WILD and get something different. personally, i don’t have the ability to download songs from the internet, so the FM Radio Recording feature is a major plus. not to mention 6 more color choices than an ipod and more song space than a mini. plus a voice recorder? now i’m one of those people that you can tell me to do something, i’ll say okay then i will continue doing what i’m doing without even realizing what i just agreed to do! that voice recorder comes in pretty handy if you tend to have those uh-oh-i-forgot moments often. and did i mention mine is RED? psh who wants whimpy sparkly colors when you can have bold and shiny? really now, people. it’s a clear choice. is it really that tough of a decision? the zen creative micro would kick the ipod’s ass anyday. yup.
October 3rd, 2005 at 4:04 pm
36ok so i had a regular ipod for almost a year, but then it broke and the stupid “fine print” on the contract says “apple is not responsible for abuse by the owner or theft” or something like that. I want to get a zen micro now, but i’m not sure if that will be too drastic of a change for me and i won’t like it. pleaze give me some suggestions!
October 5th, 2005 at 5:37 pm
37I’ve heard some people said that ipod scroll-wheel can get dirty quickly and break easily. And other people said that ipod the screen can scratch easily, so Zen is better.
October 6th, 2005 at 7:34 pm
38ipod mini is dominate u fools! 6gb=18 hours of batery life u dingbats! anyway, my friend bought a micro zen he loves it, my mini(6gb) IS DOMINATE YOU LITTLE KID FOOLS!!! MUAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH
October 7th, 2005 at 8:28 pm
39yes, zens are the bomb. i actually paid $150 for the 5GB zen, and i also had a rebate after that.
the one thing i like better about ipods is the fact that it has games
October 28th, 2005 at 9:19 am
40I really like my Creative Zen Micro
i bought mine for $210
oh! F**K! i should have known there are a lot of these zen micros sold at a lower price.
but still i like it.
i know it doesn’t have the popularity power of the ipod but still i like it.
the only things i didn’t like in my Zen Micro is its POWER BUTTON, i think it can be easily damaged.
November 1st, 2005 at 12:45 am
41quote: First of all, I choose the iPod mini, its smaller than the creative player, and avaible in 4GB and 6GB models, the creative player is also aviable in 4GB and 5GB and 6GB models, the ipods colours are more attractive,and the new ipod mini has 18 hours of battery life. the creative player has only 12 hours. The creative 5GB player can fit 2500 songs at 16 kbps..and 1250 at 128 kbps so now you see if you want 2500 songs on it your sound quility would be extremly bad. With the ipod mini 6GB you can fit 1500 songs at 128 kbps and 3000 at 16 kpbs if you realy want to get bad quility sounded music. The ipod may not have Radio or voice recording…but now is equiped with Podcasts, it is radio, so now you do have radio on your ipod mini. end quote
the first part about the capacity was actually supporting the zen micro as it has a wider range of capacity choice and therefore different prices to suit different wallets, and little did shaun realise he compared a 5GB creative model with a 6GB apple model, the creative claim of holding 2500 songs is in 64Kkbps not 16kbps. if u cant find an atractive colour out of the 10 that the zen micro has well then you are either colour blind and just blind. the thing about battery life is rubbish, my friends ipod broke down like 4 times in a year because the battery fails, and had to take it for warranty, even if the zen micro’s battery broke down u can get another one and replace it yourself. the battery life thing, the zen micro gives u an extra battery (in australia) so that 24 hrs compared to ur 18. the podcasts needs to be downloaded and therefore is not ‘live’, like actual radio, and for one i would not bother getting home and plug my mp3 player to my computer just so that i can listen to ‘radio’.
shaun here is trying to over exaggerate stuff and had made pretty bad attempts at dissing the zen micro (lol, comparing a 5gb with a 6gb), and is recommended to go bak to kindergarten and learn math.
November 1st, 2005 at 10:01 pm
42actually ive received (as a gift) a micro zen
so i cannot compare too much, even though i can say that my zen is excellent (5GB is good enough for me right now), good options, the add i like is the fm radio and the fact that i can record from it , as well as voice, but the microphone is not that good.
what i dislike is the software, id rather not having to use one , but i have, most other mp3 reps i know simply take as an usb mem the mp3 files and reproduce them
the other bad (or just not good) is that as an external HD it can only have 2GB…….
but still i am very happy the use of the soft is not that boring and if i take music from somewhere i can put it on the 2gb space and then move it to the other zone (need a PC)
the BEST BEST of the micro zen 5gb: the price!
November 6th, 2005 at 4:03 pm
43I can’t belive the number 1 thing why people say a iPod is better then a zen is because it looks better.
December 19th, 2005 at 11:29 pm
44It took a while for me to make my decision for a good, reliable mp3 player that can get me more bang for my buck. After searching many sites like these that compare these 2 leading mp3 players in the market and sorting through all the IPod/Zen Fanboy comments (trust me, there were A LOT more ipod fans out there) i finally decided to get a Creative Zen Micro.
Why?
Because like I said, it gives you more bang for your buck. It’s a lot cheaper, a lot easier to use if you dont have a apple computer, and has A LOT more and better features.
I have had this mp3 player for about a year now and it is a lot more than I expected. The sound is excellent, FM recorder is very convenient, and the overall feel for it is just simply better than the ipod mini. If it wasnt for the ipod’s “coolness” factor, I believe the zen micro would be running the market.
I’m not commenting on this just to tell everyone to go buy a zen micro, I’m just trying to inform people, like myself a year ago, that there a more (and better) choices than an IPod.
December 20th, 2005 at 10:45 pm
45Im totally choosing the zen. mainly because of the replacable batt. I mean honestly. So what if the ipod supposedly looks better? The zen kicks ass! besides, if i wanted to use a ipod, I’d just borrow my friends. Ha. Also, my aunt works in creative and so she cant get me better deal.
December 31st, 2005 at 12:43 pm
46hey i bought a micro 2. Apparantly the jack plug is a problem (it is on mine) so be wary!! #
But it is better than an ipod mini by far!
January 5th, 2006 at 3:53 am
47Like other here, I was sold on the Zen Micro because of the extra built-in features (FM Radio, mono mic recording and removeable battery).
Plus I can easily “out-cool” iPod drones with my custom-built, personalized Altoid case!
http://www6.head-fi.org/forums/showthread.php?p=1203112
IMHO:
iPod = superior marketing for the relatively uninformed (or they got it as a gift) who rely on Steve Jobs’ approval to “feel cool.”
Zen Micro = superior product for people who take the time to do independent research and truly “Think Different.”
BTW, #12 Ryan, for higher end listening on EITHER device, one CAN also playback full resolution CD rips (44.1/16 bit files).
January 18th, 2006 at 5:46 am
48i want a ZEN 4GB!!! much of the people in our school bought Ipods for the “coolness” factor. BTW, i suggest you don’t buy Ipod Video… my schoolmate just got one last week… and after 6 days, the screen’s already hanging up (take note: she hasn’t even installed videos and much mp3s in there.. T_T)
January 19th, 2006 at 5:00 pm
49im trying to decide if i want a ipod nano.. or a zen micro.. the zen should win hands down.. but why am i having such a hard time deciding???? I DONT KNOW!.. nano = pussy 2gb .. zen mircro = LEET 5gb .. i guess its just the cool factor.. but the nano gets scratched fast.. and i skateboard so im afraid of breaking one.. screw it.. im getting a zen micro.. i better not regret it
February 8th, 2006 at 5:37 am
50The Zen micro has a shocking interface. The iPod mini interface is by far the most intuitive and easy to use.
Since the main thing you’ll be doing with your mp3 player is USING it, it’s important to think about how much of a pain in the ass the Zen interface/menu is and how easy and problem-free the iPod mini is to use. Not to mention it’s superior scroll-whell and button integration.
Any problems with dirty scroll wheel or scratched screen? Just get an iPod mini skin. If you’re thinking about paying less for a Zen, you’ll get what you pay for. 18 hours battery life is more than enough. How hard is it to plug it in to a charger at the end of every day? The battery has no memory effect so no worries there.
Also, iTunes is the most fantastic media player ever. It has excellent web support linking with the iTunes store and podcasts and a CD Tagging database that literally has every CD ever produced in it.
People who won’t like iTunes are those who’ve been using Windows software so long that they’re used to doing everything the long way. iTunes is so straightfoward and intuitive to use that these people don’t know what to do with themselves. All the problems mentioned here are not issues with iTunes, just issues with the users.
One thing left to mention. All you people who illegally download mp3’s and have problems tagging them and organising them and various other problems. Flippin serves you right, you should be buying from the itunes store or importing the CD’s you own.
If you are a true music lover you’ll love the iPod hands down. Apple rewards those of us who purchase and own our music.
February 15th, 2006 at 1:19 am
51I think this comparision is fantastic, just what I was hunting for. Since me being a true geek, me prefer Creative!
Though would love it if Winamp came out with thier own player….WOW, that’d be something!
February 24th, 2006 at 8:11 pm
52Good article, very detailed and everything. I used to have a 2gb ipod nano, but I sold that and got a much cheaper 5gb zen micro. Here’s my 2 cents:
Somethings I didn’t like about the nano:
It scratches easily, but I used a contour case so it’s fine.
More expensive than the Zen
Things I don’t like about the Zen:
Doesn’t work with iTunes. I used to use winamp and drag and drop, and windows media player syncing, but iTunes hands down is a million times better.
No rating system.
The scroll bar is annoying, instead of going around like the nano. Even though I am kind of getting used to it now, the nano wins hands down.
The nano is around 1/3 the size, and 1/2 the weight. Well at least it felt that way, I could be way off.
The headphone jack is friggin retarded on the zen micro, it shouldn’t be at the top right next to your power / hold switch. It just makes everything more difficult to access.
I don’t like the touch activiated media controls (play, stop, ff, menu, and etc). I preferred the nano where only the volume was controlled by the touch sensitive pad, and the rest you had to actually press down. Start up times bug the heck out of me.
No firewire.
So obviously I liked the nano the best. I am prolly going to end up selling my zen micro and buying another nano ;)
January 8th, 2007 at 9:14 am
53This is a great blog!
February 4th, 2007 at 2:12 pm
54Im for the zen it ha a harder to get used to but much better interface and it can play WMAs which are half the size of the mp3s at the same quality.
March 20th, 2007 at 12:32 pm
55March 20th, 2007 at 10:31 pm
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64March 24th, 2007 at 12:17 am
65March 24th, 2007 at 1:02 am
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